riventhorn | Shen Wei's decision not to tell Zhao Yunlan

I'm putting this discussion behind the cut because it contains spoilers for Episodes 38 through 40.

I'm interested in how others feel about Shen Wei's decision not to tell Zhao Yunlan about his end-game plan for stopping Ye Zun, i.e. turning himself into a bomb.

Personally, I think it was the right decision--or perhaps it is more accurate to say, the best choice of many bad options. Regardless of whether he told Zhao Yunlan or not, I don't think Shen Wei would have changed his decision to sacrifice himself to stop Ye Zun. If he had told ZYL much earlier, say when he first conceived of the plan or during the famous kitchen scene, it would only have resulted in a lot of fighting, anger, and sorrow, because ZYL would certainly have tried to stop Shen Wei or done something drastic himself to try and stop Ye Zun. I mean, just look at ZYL's face in these moments in Ep 38 when Shen Wei is hurt and how absolutely devastated he is: https://youtu.be/V2dUtbSz4hQ?t=1823

By not telling ZYL, Shen Wei is able to be with him without Shen Wei's looming death hanging over them. Shen Wei, of course, knows what is coming and has to bear that, but I consider it more an act of kindness and love not to tell ZYL as opposed to looking at it as a selfish act.

Beyond this moment, it raises the interesting question of when it is appropriate to keep secrets, to keep people in the dark, to hide bad news, etc. I know I've read this somewhere, although I can't remember where, but it was something to the effect of how a strong and lasting relationship may not necessarily depend on the parties involved sharing everything with each other.

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From:

xparrot

Hmmm, I'm torn about this. On the one hand, I think Shen Wei not telling Zhao Yunlan is a big mistake on his part -- because I think if he had told him, they could've worked out a better plan, one that maybe they could both survive. (I know the show couldn't actually have allowed that, but I have faith in them and their strength together!)

On the other, I understand why Shen Wei doesn't tell him, with all his issues and guilt and responsibilities and fear and everything else. And I think that Shen Wei could honestly have meant it to be a kindness. Especially believing as he did that his demise was inevitable and necessary -- and also that Zhao Yunlan was related to how he made himself into a bomb, and Zhao Yunlan was so upset by what he knew about that already.

I'm really curious about how Zhao Yunlan might feel about it. He definitely understands why Shen Wei did it, at the end there, but I'm not sure if that's understanding with forgiveness, or understanding with gratitude. Because yeah, if it was inevitable, maybe Zhao Yunlan wouldn't have wanted to know? Would've wanted to enjoy their time together?

(But I refuse to believe it was inevitable, so! :P)

From:

extrapenguin

My thoughts are basically yours, but with the addition that Shen Wei absolutely should have told Zhao Yunlan that he's down under the weather and not at full power, because that is important information Zhao Yunlan absolutely needs to have. (I think it was also implied that had Shen Wei not weakened himself curing Zhao Yunlan's eyes, he might've been able to take down Ye Zun?) I'd also argue that Shen Wei should've told Zhao Yunlan that he and Ye Zun were brothers, since to my reading Shen Wei is at least a little but emotionally compromised by that, hence his plan being one where he doesn't outlive his brother. However, Shen Wei as a character is someone who doesn't tell anyone anything voluntarily and shoulders the world's burdens himself, so not telling anyone anything is very in character.

From:

riventhorn

I think it was also implied that had Shen Wei not weakened himself curing Zhao Yunlan's eyes, he might've been able to take down Ye Zun?

I'm not sure about that either. I think Ye Zun says that before, Shen Wei would have been a match for him, so perhaps they would have been evenly matched, but still not guaranteeing Shen Wei would win.

I agree Shen Wei should have told ZYL the two of them were brothers a lot earlier, although I wonder how much of Shen Wei's reticence in explaining the past was due to how much he knew about Kunlun being ZYL and concerns about messing up the timeline, as obviously ZYL had not yet gone back in time. I am still pondering that question of when Shen Wei realized ZYL was Kunlun and when he figured out exactly how the whole time travel thing had worked.

From:

ranalore

I'd also argue that Shen Wei should've told Zhao Yunlan that he and Ye Zun were brothers

This is one of those areas where Shen Wei's possible secrets shade over into how much Shen Wei's put together about Zhao Yunlan's Excellent Adventure, for me. Does he remember "Kun Lun" being shocked to learn they were brothers 10K years ago? If he does, and if he figures out ZYL must have time travelled with the assistance/interference of the Hallows, he may say nothing to protect the space-time continuum. If he hasn't figured out the time travelling yet (maybe believes ZYL has amnesia, like Da Qing), or isn't sure if it already happened, he may believe ZYL remembered/recognized Ye Zun when Ye Zun manifested just before ZYL went blind. I'm just not sure it's something he's deliberately keeping from ZYL, though it's equally possible it's just, as you say in your last sentence, that Shen Wei's not in the habit of volunteering information.

From:

china_shop

If he hasn't figured out the time travelling yet (maybe believes ZYL has amnesia, like Da Qing)

Except he knows Zhao Yunlan is human, and he's met his father. And given the gun and the lollipops, it kind of has to be time travel, doesn't it? I thought he'd figure that out as soon as he arrived in Haixing 20 years ago (if not before).

From:

ranalore

Except he knows Zhao Yunlan is human, and he's met his father.

All that really tells him, though, is that Zhao Yunlan's originally from this time period. I think the gun and lollipops confirm for him that this isn't just someone who looks like the love he lost, this is his love, but he's still trying to figure out how and when the time travel happen/ed possibly right up until it does, and thus how much ZYL knows, and how much it's safe for ZYL to know. If he realizes ZYL hasn't traveled back in time before that point, and doesn't make the connection between Ye Zun looking like Shen Wei and being related to Shen Wei, he may think it's safer for ZYL not to know. Which, given Ye Zun's instability, is possibly the case.

From:

china_shop

Oh, right. I misunderstood your earlier comment about Da Qing and amnesia, and thought you mean that Shen Wei might believe ZYL was 10,000 years old like Da Qing. *facepalm*

So when you say "If he hasn't figured out the time travelling yet" you mean if he hasn't figured out when the time-travelling happened, not if it was time travel, then?

(I feel like if the SID Chief had serious memory problems, it would either be in his file or Chu Shuzhi would know and have reported it, but I suppose they could have hushed it up if they were very careful.)

From:

ranalore

I misunderstood your earlier comment about Da Qing and amnesia, and thought you mean that Shen Wei might believe ZYL was 10,000 years old like Da Qing.

Oh, sorry. I think that was just me not being clear.

So when you say "If he hasn't figured out the time travelling yet" you mean if he hasn't figured out when the time-travelling happened, not if it was time travel, then?

Right. I think once he knows ZYL's the right person, he probably posits time travel as the most likely theory, and given that temporal effects are theorized as a side effect of using the Hallows, he may even determine they're the most likely culprits (and then warn ZYL to stop messing with them, because who knows how much time travelling they might send ZYL on without Shen Wei to stop it, he's even jealous of the time his younger self will get to spend with ZYL). Add another reason he's pissed that ZYL can't keep his hands off the LD.

(I feel like if the SID Chief had serious memory problems, it would either be in his file or Chu Shuzhi would know and have reported it, but I suppose they could have hushed it up if they were very careful.)

Ha! True. I was thinking more of situational amnesia, like Shen Wei wondered if ZYL had gone to the past and forgotten it on his return. Many of their early encounters are reading to me, on rewatching, as Shen Wei prompting ZYL, trying to understand why ZYL doesn't recognize him (and trying not to lose heart that this is his Kun Lun, because lollipops! And also Da Qing!). He doesn't see the gun until the Hanga Tribe arc, which I'm at now, but I think he's pretty convinced already. I also think he's still on the fence about what exactly happened, though; he hasn't brought up any temporal effects yet. I don't think those come into play until at least two of them are together, which might be the point when he starts working it out.

From:

riventhorn

Jumping in to say that I was just rewatching the first episode, and it's so hard to see Shen Wei giving ZYL those little prompts and obviously hoping that any second now, Zhao Yunlan is going to recognize him, only to be left disappointed and confused when he doesn't.

From:

ranalore

I knoooow, his little face! Then later, he's so winded when ZYL asks about his name. Used to being injured, indeed.

From:

china_shop

I think once he knows ZYL's the right person, he probably posits time travel as the most likely theory, and given that temporal effects are theorized as a side effect of using the Hallows, he may even determine they're the most likely culprits

I don't think he needs to theorise about this: in the past, ZYL was quite clear about retrieving the Hallows being his "mission", and when they had them, he was all, "Okay, so where's my wormhole?"

he's even jealous of the time his younger self will get to spend with ZYL

Oh, whereas I think he really cherishes that time and wouldn't change it for anything. I think that's a large part of what holds him back from revealing himself sooner.

Add another reason he's pissed that ZYL can't keep his hands off the LD.

Or the fact that ZYL keeps passing out/getting sick when he touches them?

Many of their early encounters are reading to me, on rewatching, as Shen Wei prompting ZYL, trying to understand why ZYL doesn't recognize him (and trying not to lose heart that this is his Kun Lun, because lollipops! And also Da Qing!).

*pets him* I tend to put that down to wishful thinking, which he can't quite suppress (and I'm having a lot of fun rolling around in the angst in fic *ahem*). I think by episode four, when he says that an important person gave him his name, he's pretty resigned to the fact that ZYL isn't his Kunlun yet, especially given ZYL's stated attitudes to Dixingren.

He doesn't see the gun until the Hanga Tribe arc

I feel that he would have seen it, or at least been aware of its existence, when it belonged to Zhao Xinci. (Though that does leave a space-yet-to-be-filled-in in my head about why he wasn't subsequently paying more attention to SID chiefs thereafter.)

From:

extrapenguin

I don't think Shen Wei was in a condition to notice Zhao Yunlan going "??? brothers???" at the side, so he was likely just being reticient. The option that he'd not realized Zhao Yunlan was a time traveler and was instead just trying to not confuse him with extra information he didn't yet remember is also interesting.

From:

trobadora

I know the show couldn't actually have allowed that, but I have faith in them and their strength together!

See, I feel like it does the characters a disservice to judge their actions by assuming they had options they were never going to have. The drama's world is set up so that Ye Zun really is too powerful to defeat in other ways, and Ye Zun just wasn't ever going to listen to Shen Wei/believe the truth until everything was truly over.

(I like alternate-ending fix-its! I want more of them! But you have to really work hard to find a way to change the situation so that it's plausible.)

From:

xparrot

Yeah, this is very much a YMMV thing.

For me, Ye Zun's absolute power seems very deus ex machina; Shen Wei's powers are so undefined as well, so Ye Zun being undeniably more powerful than him feels like an arbitrary storytelling decision to force the tragic end. Shen Wei pulling a crazy unseen power out to defeat Ye Zun because Zhao Yunlan is threatened wouldn't feel any more or less plausible to me than the actual end -- or Zhao Yunlan gaining a Dixing power from the serum strong enough to fight Ye Zun, or Ye Zun deciding at the last moment that he can't kill his brother after all, or a host of other things; the only reason they don't have those options is because the writers don't let them?

But it's all subjective! For me, tragic endings are a tough sell -- I do like them sometimes, but it takes a lot to satisfy me; while I'm more likely to go easy on a happy ending. For me, for what the Guardian show is to me and how I relate to it, the ending doesn't work. But that's what fanfic is for!

From:

trobadora

Yeah, we're clearly coming at this from very different directions! For me, the drama is building up to that ending so much, I'm having trouble believing anything else. *g*

(I can be convinced for the duration of a fic! I do love a good canon divergence. And I'm here for ALL the happy endings.)

From:

riventhorn

Yes, probably how you feel about it depends a lot on how you feel about the overall ending. I'll have to spend some more time pondering why tragic endings can appeal to me. For example, I also really liked the ending of BBC's Merlin, which was arguably even sadder than Guardian. I'd also throw the LOTR in there, with Frodo's "death." I think part of it is that they pack such an emotional punch that the feelings linger with me and make me think more. Also, perhaps in some ways they feel more realistic to me as opposed to a HEA ending in that they capture the bittersweet/sad aspects of life. Certainly with both Guardian and Merlin, I like the tragic ending because it's not just a "ok, I don't know how to end this, let's just kill everyone off" and not just done to be depressing but rather the characters' sacrifices are for a real purpose.

But anyway, as you say, everyone has their own feelings on the subject!

From:

ranalore

I can see this argument. I mean, for me, the ending works, and so many things in the show were building up to it. Yet, especially in a discussion like this, my writerly brain turns on and I can't help but see the authorial fiat in that.

Do I think it would take some work to make a happier ending jive? Yes. Yet, there are undefined plot elements that, depending on how you interpret them, could help with some of the heavy lifting. The twins' powers, the powers of the Hallows, how the Hallows responded to ZYL, and how they were changing ZYL, are just a few factors I can think of that could have changed how the ending went down (even if it still ended with all three dying, how that happened could have been radically different). I could even see how, if other conditions were still met (light and resources to Dixing, SW's energy fundamentally changed, for example), ZYL and SW living (and possibly a neutralized Ye Zun) might work with earlier plot threads. I think it would take some careful writing, but I think the potential is there.

From:

xparrot

Yes, part of the problem I have with the end is that I agree that some of the show was written toward it -- toward the ending that was required, that the characters had to die, because they could not be allowed to have a happy ending, not as an mlm couple in a PRC drama.

But then, a lot of the show was also taking from the novel (if not the plot, then specific scenes, e.g. the confrontation in ep 23 is nearly a direct adaptation), which does end happily.

I think the story as arranged did necessitate sacrifice -- many stories do. But I don't think that sacrifice had to be their lives. Shen Wei losing his powers and becoming (whole or partly) a mortal Haixingren -- even as Zhao Yunlan took the serum and became Dixingren -- could have also met a lot of the requirements of the narrative setup. (Plus there are threads like Xiao Guo being the lantern's wick that are left dangling...)

From:

ranalore

But then, a lot of the show was also taking from the novel (if not the plot, then specific scenes, e.g. the confrontation in ep 23 is nearly a direct adaptation), which does end happily.

I was thinking about that, too. I haven't read the novel, and consider it extracanonical to the show, but of course those aspects of it that made it into the show are show canon. And the thing about scenes that are close adaptations, they come with their own intent--authorial fiat again--with some embedding of the original context. So there is a carefully built throughline leading to the sacrifice-as-written, but there are also pieces there to be connected to lead to a different ending, one closer to that on which the show's own adaptation was based.

Plus, we always have to keep in mind that the show's text itself can be read at at least two levels: what the censors made happen, and what the creators really wanted to make. I have written a lot of fandoms set at least partly in the afterlife; that could still have been a happy ending, had SW and ZYL been allowed to stay together.

Shen Wei losing his powers and becoming (whole or partly) a mortal Haixingren

I would actually love to have seen him become something entirely new, a light energy Dixingren, but that's my id.

Plus there are threads like Xiao Guo being the lantern's wick that are left dangling...

I did wonder about that, and the conversations about that didn't make it sound like Xiao Guo would necessarily need to die for that to happen (though Lao Chu also suffers prettily, so if Xiao Guo did end up dying, it would be for two good causes).

From:

xparrot

I would actually love to have seen him become something entirely new, a light energy Dixingren, but that's my id.

Oh hey, that would be cool, I like that one!

And it really would've fit better with the show's themes, to me (one of my biggest problems with the ending, aside from the character death, is that after a whole show's worth of examples of how Haixingren and Dixingren can learn to get along and work together and love each other -- in the end the worlds are completely separated. To me it's a tragedy presented as a victory, and was unnecessary besides...)

From:

extrapenguin

after a whole show's worth of examples of how Haixingren and Dixingren can learn to get along and work together and love each other -- in the end the worlds are completely separated. To me it's a tragedy presented as a victory, and was unnecessary besides...
This. So very much this! The show does have throughlines that build towards a sacrifice, but it also has throughlines that build towards other things: all races can cooperate together, and the theme of revenge being not worth it. For the latter, it would IMO have fit perfectly if (due to interspecies cooperation?) Ye Zun had taken a step back at the precipice and not gone through his revenge, letting eg Zhao Yunlan talk him down.

From:

riventhorn

The complete separation between Dixing and Haixing disappointed me too. If I was going to have a different ending to the drama, this sort of scenario is what I would want. I also felt, though, that with almost every "villain" story, the show emphasized the idea of making bad decisions with bad consequences based on incomplete information. Ye Zun's backstory fit perfectly within this narrative. So in that way, I thought that it complemented the narrative moods and goals of the show.

From:

From:

xparrot - Date: 2019-04-02 12:29 am (UTC) - Expand

From:

riventhorn

I'm convinced Shen Wei definitely thought he was doing the right thing. I wonder if ZYL was perhaps a little relieved to find out that Shen Wei's growing weakness was not attributed solely to helping him heal his eyes, but that Shen Wei was doing it for a bigger purpose. It seems like that would relieve some of ZYL's guilt. As I understood it, the moment with the Longevity Dial and healing ZYL was not enough to turn Shen Wei into a bomb, rather, he had to keep replacing his energy. Although I could be wrong about that.