Shen Wei's decision not to tell Zhao Yunlan

[riventhorn]

 I'm putting this discussion behind the cut because it contains spoilers for Episodes 38 through 40. 

I'm interested in how others feel about Shen Wei's decision not to tell Zhao Yunlan about his end-game plan for stopping Ye Zun, i.e. turning himself into a bomb. 

Personally, I think it was the right decision--or perhaps it is more accurate to say, the best choice of many bad options. Regardless of whether he told Zhao Yunlan or not, I don't think Shen Wei would have changed his decision to sacrifice himself to stop Ye Zun. If he had told ZYL much earlier, say when he first conceived of the plan or during the famous kitchen scene, it would only have resulted in a lot of fighting, anger, and sorrow, because ZYL would certainly have tried to stop Shen Wei or done something drastic himself to try and stop Ye Zun. I mean, just look at ZYL's face in these moments in Ep 38 when Shen Wei is hurt and how absolutely devastated he is: https://youtu.be/V2dUtbSz4hQ?t=1823

By not telling ZYL, Shen Wei is able to be with him without Shen Wei's looming death hanging over them. Shen Wei, of course, knows what is coming and has to bear that, but I consider it more an act of kindness and love not to tell ZYL as opposed to looking at it as a selfish act. 

Beyond this moment, it raises the interesting question of when it is appropriate to keep secrets, to keep people in the dark, to hide bad news, etc. I know I've read this somewhere, although I can't remember where, but it was something to the effect of how a strong and lasting relationship may not necessarily depend on the parties involved sharing everything with each other. 

Comments

[lynndyre]

I... genuinely don't know. I'd like him to talk to Zhao Yunlan before that final mission, but it's just not how Shen Wei operates. (and I just want all the options for fixits. Including post-canon Zhao Yunlan pinning Shen Wei down and finding the Guardian equivalent of veritaserum)

I think it was the right call not to mention it earlier though, because Zhao Yunlan could not have been Kunlun effectively with that in his head.

[riventhorn]

It is very in character for Shen Wei. That's an interesting point about Shen Wei being careful about how much he reveals to Zhao Yunlan because of the whole Kunlun piece. I'm still not sure when exactly Shen Wei puts together all the pieces about Kunlun and how that affects his interactions with Zhao Yunlan.

[asya_ana]

I don't know, but I do think it's very much in keeping with Shen Wei's characterization throughout. So it's character consistent, which is the important thing, and I do like me a flaw, if you think it is one.

I've generally seen SW's consistent decisions to act on his own as objectionable but not *bad* for the show. I'm in favor of him learning to trust ZYL and work with him. It's just something I'll have to struggle with in the fic. :D

I may have clearer feelings on this after my rewatch.

[riventhorn]

Definitely in character, although I'm not sure I think of it as Shen Wei acting on his own. Rather, I see it more as Shen Wei believing that both himself and Zhao Yunlan need to do the tasks best suited to them and that are their own particular duty. I never got the impression that Shen Wei did not want ZYL to participate at all in the fight against Ye Zun, rather that he thought ZYL should handle things in Haixing (still plenty dangerous) and that he needed to handle the Dixing side of things and his brother (who he probably felt particularly responsible for).

I'm also thinking of the fact that Shen Wei does call on ZYL to help him when he's chained to the pillar. In this case, Shen Wei does want to work with ZYL--as long as he thinks that ZYL has a realistic chance of success.

Plus, I feel like Shen Wei absolutely relies on ZYL as a model of someone who is prepared to do what's right and needs to be done--to make a meaningful choice (yes, I'm heavily influenced by "Time of Flight" here!)--and I think he has ever since he first met him as Kunlun.

So maybe I see a distinction between having someone at your side in a fight versus relying on that person in other ways??

[china_shop]

I never got the impression that Shen Wei did not want ZYL to participate at all in the fight against Ye Zun, rather that he thought ZYL should handle things in Haixing (still plenty dangerous) and that he needed to handle the Dixing side of things and his brother (who he probably felt particularly responsible for).

Yes! This is how I see it too.

[solo]

I'm also thinking of the fact that Shen Wei does call on ZYL to help him when he's chained to the pillar.

Actually, he only calls on Zhao Yunlan when Xiao Guo is in danger, not for himself. Which makes sense because SW and ZYL have an agreement, but it doesn't cover letting Guo die.

[galaxysoup]

I'm honestly not sure whether I agree with Shen Wei's decision or just understand it? Zhao Yunlan would have fought him on that decision so hard, and Shen Wei was barely managing to stay above water with the battles he was already fighting without having to contingency-plan for ZYL's contingency plans as well, so on that level I think it was the right decision. And, as someone else pointed out, even a kind one - they got to have their last times together without that doom hanging over both of them.

On the other hand, the fic writer in me wants to think that maybe ZYL and the SID would have been able to figure out some kind of workaround that would have saved the day for both of them. But given what we have in canon, I think I'm on Team Shen Wei's Sacrifice.

[riventhorn]

Part of how you look at it does depend on whether or not you think there could have been another option to take out Ye Zun. But if you stick with canon, yes, I'm on Team Shen Wei's Sacrifice too.

I do think it was a kind decision. And I feel like ZYL, when he understands what's happening, doesn't blame SW at all. Which is really another testament to ZYL's empathy and love. I could easily see that scene where he realizes what Shen Wei has done being played with him being hurt/angry and instead he smiles and is clearly thinking more about how much he admires/loves SW for putting what must be done over his own life (like when as Kunlun he says that SW has always been a light, or words to that effect).

[solo]

Shen Wei was barely managing to stay above water with the battles he was already fighting without having to contingency-plan for ZYL's contingency plans as well

I love how you put that!

[trobadora]

and Shen Wei was barely managing to stay above water with the battles he was already fighting without having to contingency-plan for ZYL's contingency plans as well

Ha! That's the perfect way to put it. And I'm definitely Team Shen Wei's Sacrifice, too.

(Also, ZYL's sacrifice afterwards - he'd have fought Shen Wei tooth and nail if he'd known what he was planning, but in the end ZYL makes the same choice to sacrifice himself for the greater good, and I think in that moment he fully understands why Shen Wei did what he did.)

[ranalore]

This is really well-said.

I do think, given the constraints of the canon world, Shen Wei made the best decision in not telling ZYL his ultimate plan. It's kinder to both of them, I think, and he does rely on ZYL for the things ZYL can realistically do (and ZYL still manages to get involved in the Dixing side of things anyway, and make his own ludicrously noble self-sacrifice on behalf of everybody, so).

I mean, of course there's a huge squishy part of me that wishes it could have been otherwise, that Shen Wei had told ZYL everything and they had figured out an alternative that allowed them both to live, but I think that aspect of the plot was so intricately constructed, a lot of other things in the show would have to fundamentally change for it to work. So, I will happily read--and write--fixits by the dozens, but I'm Team Shen Wei's Sacrifice, too. Plus, they both suffer so prettily

[zairaa]

"The best choice of many bad options" puts it pretty well, I think. Is there a possible AU where Shen Wei tells ZYL and they talk about it and agree on a plan of action? Maybe. But there are many where it would not go over well and ZYL would try to interfere and save Shen Wei by putting himself in danger, and that of course would be unacceptable to Shen Wei.

I also do think it is a kind decision in a way. That doesn't mean it can't be both, kind and selfish, because I think Shen Wei also wants to have these last moments with ZYL to not be spoiled by the coming doom.

The question about keeping secrets is an interesting one. I think I tend to answer that differently in fiction and RL. I like characters in fiction who are a bit fucked-up and definitely flawed, and so I don't usually view the actions of these characters through the lens of "would I want my own partner to behave like that?" but more a "is it relatable and in character for this person?", which in the case of Shen Wei I so think it is. I also think in regards to secret keeping it depends a lot on whose shoes you put yourself into, the one who keeps the secret to protect the one they love, or the one who gets lied to and doesn't get the chance to do the same. In a way, it's a fight about who gets to protect who. :)

[trobadora]

I also do think it is a kind decision in a way. That doesn't mean it can't be both, kind and selfish, because I think Shen Wei also wants to have these last moments with ZYL to not be spoiled by the coming doom.

Yes! this!

[riventhorn]

True that fiction and RL are different. :) I was also forgetting about how ZYL does know something is going on with Shen Wei's health and his powers and is patiently waiting for Shen Wei to tell him.

[solo]

That particular decision, I think that for one thing it's in character, and it makes sense, and it's kindness so I'm totally A-OK with that.

Some of Shen Wei's other secret-keeping seems less appropriate, and there's at least one time when Zhao Yunlan calls him out on it and basically says, 'you could have prevented deaths here if you'd only talked'. I think it's the goldfish girl ep, when Shen Wei allowed the SID to think the guy and not the girl was Dixingren.

[trobadora]

I agree with this, too. Some secrets Shen Wei keeps with very good reason, and others, not so much. Force of habit?

[riventhorn]

Definitely, most of the other stuff he should have absolutely been more upfront about.

[xparrot]

Hmmm, I'm torn about this. On the one hand, I think Shen Wei not telling Zhao Yunlan is a big mistake on his part -- because I think if he had told him, they could've worked out a better plan, one that maybe they could both survive. (I know the show couldn't actually have allowed that, but I have faith in them and their strength together!)

On the other, I understand why Shen Wei doesn't tell him, with all his issues and guilt and responsibilities and fear and everything else. And I think that Shen Wei could honestly have meant it to be a kindness. Especially believing as he did that his demise was inevitable and necessary -- and also that Zhao Yunlan was related to how he made himself into a bomb, and Zhao Yunlan was so upset by what he knew about that already.

I'm really curious about how Zhao Yunlan might feel about it. He definitely understands why Shen Wei did it, at the end there, but I'm not sure if that's understanding with forgiveness, or understanding with gratitude. Because yeah, if it was inevitable, maybe Zhao Yunlan wouldn't have wanted to know? Would've wanted to enjoy their time together?

(But I refuse to believe it was inevitable, so! :P)

[extrapenguin]

My thoughts are basically yours, but with the addition that Shen Wei absolutely should have told Zhao Yunlan that he's down under the weather and not at full power, because that is important information Zhao Yunlan absolutely needs to have. (I think it was also implied that had Shen Wei not weakened himself curing Zhao Yunlan's eyes, he might've been able to take down Ye Zun?) I'd also argue that Shen Wei should've told Zhao Yunlan that he and Ye Zun were brothers, since to my reading Shen Wei is at least a little but emotionally compromised by that, hence his plan being one where he doesn't outlive his brother. However, Shen Wei as a character is someone who doesn't tell anyone anything voluntarily and shoulders the world's burdens himself, so not telling anyone anything is very in character.

[trobadora]

I know the show couldn't actually have allowed that, but I have faith in them and their strength together!

See, I feel like it does the characters a disservice to judge their actions by assuming they had options they were never going to have. The drama's world is set up so that Ye Zun really is too powerful to defeat in other ways, and Ye Zun just wasn't ever going to listen to Shen Wei/believe the truth until everything was truly over.

(I like alternate-ending fix-its! I want more of them! But you have to really work hard to find a way to change the situation so that it's plausible.)

[riventhorn]

I'm convinced Shen Wei definitely thought he was doing the right thing. I wonder if ZYL was perhaps a little relieved to find out that Shen Wei's growing weakness was not attributed solely to helping him heal his eyes, but that Shen Wei was doing it for a bigger purpose. It seems like that would relieve some of ZYL's guilt. As I understood it, the moment with the Longevity Dial and healing ZYL was not enough to turn Shen Wei into a bomb, rather, he had to keep replacing his energy. Although I could be wrong about that.

[trobadora]

Personally, I think it was the right decision--or perhaps it is more accurate to say, the best choice of many bad options.

That's how I look at it, too. There wasn't any other way to stop Ye Zun (and I feel pretending there was does a disservice to the characers), so what good could have come from telling ZYL? It would just have made everything even more painful.

something to the effect of how a strong and lasting relationship may not necessarily depend on the parties involved sharing everything with each other

That's interesting! And also, I feel that when the literal fate of the world hangs in the balance, the standards of normal relationships don't quite apply.

[riventhorn]

the standards of normal relationships don't quite apply. True!

what good could have come from telling ZYL? It would just have made everything even more painful.

I agree, although it's true that ZYL did know something was going on with Shen Wei and his growing weakness. So I suppose it was different than keeping him completely in the dark. I wonder how much of it ZYL contributed to Shen Wei healing his eyes and if he was a little relieved to find out at the end that Shen Wei was not, in fact, harming himself only to help ZYL.

[goodgriefcharlie]

I also think it's possible that in the early days Shen Wei kept quiet about his energy-exchange/eventual-bomb plan because he wasn't certain he'd actually need to follow through with it. With the SID working hard to find the Hallows themselves, there was no guarantee that Ye Zun's plan would come to fruition. Why cause Zhao Yunlan pain over something that was just a hypothetical? If everything worked out and they found four functioning Hallows and were able to seal Ye Zun solidly back in his pillar, Shen Wei could just stop exchanging his energy and allow himself to heal and all would be fine.

Then Ye Zun did escape from his pillar and at this point, I agree with you -- SW's options were very limited and he chose the one he could live with, which of course was the one that spared ZYL as much pain as possible for as long as possible. I'd argue it was also a strategic choice on SW's part: with Ye Zun walking free and causing havoc, it was not the time for ZYL to be distracted or to divide the SID team's efforts--which ZYL absolutely would be and do if he knew SW was going to sacrifice himself. It would pull attention and resources and time away from the hunt for the Hallows and countering Ye Zun's plans and at that point, they really couldn't afford it. I also think SW would worry that a distracted ZYL would be a more vulnerable ZYL; he'd risk getting hurt either because he wasn't paying enough attention to Ye Zun/YZ's minions or because he'd willingly do dangerous things if he thought it'd save SW. (And the thought that ZYL could possibly get hurt because of him is probably the fuel of SW's nightmares, to be honest.)

[riventhorn]

I like that point about SW's bomb plan being a no options left, backup plan for if everything else failed. Especially because he must know how much it is going to hurt ZYL to lose him and as you say, he would never do anything to intentionally hurt ZYL unless there was no other choice.