drive-by Guardian thoughts

[riventhorn]

 I was watching ep 3 today, and was struck once again by ZYL's people skills. The first time he meets Professor Zhang, he notes how she is overly apologetic and connects that to either low self esteem or past trauma. In contrast, Shen Wei keeps insisting that she has nothing to do with the crime, and that one of the three students who we find out later was involved in raping Professor Zhang is a "sincere and warm" person. ZYL comments that although Shen Wei has studied many living things, he is lacking in the area of studying human beings. 

Other moments also support the idea that Shen Wei does not always have great interpersonal skills. For example, the way he "comforts" Zhu Hong about her unrequited feelings for ZYL. I think he is really trying to comfort her, but is obviously doing a terrible job. 

However, I think his relationship with Li Qian is quite different in this respect. He notices that she is stressed and unhappy; he finds ways to comfort her about her grandmother, etc.  And of course, his relationship with ZYL, where he is quite observant of ZYL's emotions. 

So, I'm interpreting Shen Wei as the sort of person who does better in long-lasting, deep relationships where he spends a lot of time with an individual and comes to know them and feel comfortable with them, as opposed to ZYL who can connect with people much faster. For this interpretation, I am assuming that Shen Wei has known Li Qian for a while and she has been his grad assistant for a while too. 

In a related note, I love how swiftly Shen Wei becomes super concerned over Zhao Yunlan's health. We're only on ep 3, but Shen Wei is already chastising ZYL for eating sweets when he has a cold. <3<3<3

Comments

[trobadora]

So, I'm interpreting Shen Wei as the sort of person who does better in long-lasting, deep relationships where he spends a lot of time with an individual and comes to know them and feel comfortable with them, as opposed to ZYL who can connect with people much faster.

That rings very true to me!

Shen Wei does recognise there's something wrong with Zhang Ruonan, though. He doesn't realise that it's connected to the crime, or what's actually going on, but he does try to talk to her, doesn't he?

(And I don't think the Zhu Hong situation quite counts because half the reason he's not good at comforting her over being in love with Zhao Yunlan is that he is in love with Zhao Yunlan, and he has what she can't have. That would be awkward for anyone.)

[riventhorn]

That's true that he's concerned about Zhang Ruonan.

I agree, the whole Zhu Hong conversation is super awkward and would be for anyone, but still--surely he could have come up with something better than "you'll forget him in x number of years because of biology." Dear Shen Wei, trying so hard, though.

[mekare]

Shen Wei/Trying HARDEST OTP

[riventhorn]

Yes, this! <3<3<3

[mekare]

In my episode review of this episode I interpreted that scene as him actually being pretty observant of people in his immediate squere. Since he comments on Zhang Ruonan's coursework she seems to be in his department (so his sphere).

I think, especially with that student he insists on being innocent, that he tends to assume the best of people (despite having ample evidence to the contrary via his real job.)

Whereas I believe Yunlan is a person who'd be a bit of a cynic regarding humanity (excepting his team though obviously).

But I totally agree that he'd be even better in long lasting relationships. Li Quian definitely counts there.

[trobadora]

Yeah, that's a good way to look at it, Shen Wei assuming the best and ZYL being more cynical. And given that in his Envoy capacity Shen Wei is essentially judge, jury and executioner, it's a good thing he does tend to assume the best - that he's willing to take people at face value until he has actual reason to think otherwise ...

[mekare]

Shen Wei is essentially judge, jury and executioner, it's a good thing he does tend to assume the best - that he's willing to take people at face value until he has actual reason to think otherwise ...

Oh I hadn’t thought of that, but that’s a very good point.

[riventhorn]

he tends to assume the best of people (despite having ample evidence to the contrary via his real job.)

Which makes his relationship with Ye Zun even sadder because he seems to have lost all hope there.

[mekare]

Oh yes, that makes it doubly depressing. T___T

[extrapenguin]

Shen Wei is indeed not the best at reading people! (Though wrt the rapist dude, I'd defend him just a bit; it's not like he's had much opportunity to interact with him after Teacher Zhang asked to switch classes...) He also straight-up pushes Zhao Yunlan to comfort Dr. Cheng after Zu Ma's death, despite Dr. Cheng being his longterm friend whom Zhao Yunlan has spent less than 6 hours in the presence of. Oh, and he thinks "Don't worry, I'm used to getting hurt!" is supposed to be reassuring. His suboptimal childhood and the whole "time travel 10k years into the future" shows up in how he has trouble interacting with the hoomans on occasion.

As for Li Qian, well, he must be a newly-minted Professor, so she's likely his very first postgrad. It's apparently a bit like parenthood; mild overprotectiveness and excess concern is to be expected. I don't recall whether we get any other examples of him really interacting with a junior – though he's certainly responsible enough with the students on the field trip.

[rheasilvia]

+1

I don't think there's any special explanation needed for the fact that Shen Wei isn't as good at reading people as Zhao Yunlan, though. He's well within the "normal" range; he isn't particularly terrible, just not always the most observant, sometimes uncomfortable, and sometimes a little block-headed and lost for the perfect thing to say (particularly when his own emotions are involved). All of that is very human, IMO. It's a little unfair to judge him by Zhao Yunlan's standards! ;-)

In most situations, Shen Wei is actually very charming and competent at interacting with people - more so than could be expected from your standard edition biology professor, even. ;-)

[riventhorn]

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that Shen Wei isn't within the normal range of human interactions or that there was something wrong with him. I was thinking of it more as "Shen Wei strikes me as very introverted and would feel more comfortable with fewer but very strong relationships" as opposed to a more extroverted personality.

[rheasilvia]

I agree! That's how I read your entry, too; that part of my reply was in response to extrapenguin ("His suboptimal childhood and the whole "time travel 10k years into the future" shows up in how he has trouble interacting with the hoomans on occasion"). Sorry, I should have quoted!

Interestingly, I also see Zhao Yunlan as being introverted at heart, despite his high comfort and skill levels with other people, and all of his networking, general bonhomie and sociability. He has extremely few close relationships - only Da Qing, before Shen Wei comes along. He doesn't show his true self more easily than Shen Wei; in fact, his extroverted, casual, flippant and thoughtless ways are a protective facade, in many ways.

But that is a different topic! :-)

[riventhorn]

You're right--his public persona is very much about protecting himself and making it seem like everything is all right. We also never really get to see ZYL interacting with potential friends he might have outside of SID. Because the SID employees are also his subordinates and people he feels he needs to protect--kind of like Shen Wei and Li Qian.

[winter_blossom]

Interestingly, I also see Zhao Yunlan as being introverted at heart, despite his high comfort and skill levels with other people, and all of his networking, general bonhomie and sociability. He has extremely few close relationships - only Da Qing, before Shen Wei comes along. He doesn't show his true self more easily than Shen Wei; in fact, his extroverted, casual, flippant and thoughtless ways are a protective facade, in many ways.

This is exactly how I see it, too! In the novel they even go out of their way to mention it, and while I don't see very many similarities between either of the two protagonists' drama and novel selves, this is one aspect of ZYL's personality that I think they lifted wholesale from the source material, but which you wouldn't really notice without the benefit of actually being inside his headspace.

[extrapenguin]

Oh, yes, Shen Wei is very much better at human-ing than certain biology professors - he's not a wanky fuck who has feuds over mitochondria, he is capable of basic human interaction, he cares about things beyond his research - but when we get out of his comfort zone of how to be a human in academia, if he can't do a quick swap into the Envoy mask, he cracks in, ah, interesting ways. Like "I'm used to being hurt." He's learned to fake it and he now makes it, but he is still a space alien from 10k years ago, and that shows. (If he hadn't been handicapped like that, either he'd be a bit better due to being able to relate more instinctually to people's backgrounds, or he'd be worse due to not having to study human interaction.)

[rheasilvia]

he's not a wanky fuck who has feuds over mitochondria

LOL!! I love that - and now I really want to see the other professor in the department who IS the mitochondria-feuding wanky fuck. ;-)

Also, I have Shen Wei writing a paper about mitochondria in story #1 - I hope his colleague doesn't disagree with his conclusions!! ;-)

[riventhorn]

I thought with the Dr. Cheng moment that he was pushing ZYL to do it because he felt uncomfortable with doing it himself?

The junior/senior, mentor/mentee relationship does play into it I'm sure. I imagine he would have been really great with Xiao Guo if they'd had longer to interact at SID.

[firestar]

I generally see this moment as he doesn't know how to deal with someone who's crying, which is not an uncommon reaction. I mean, I guess he's used to a certain amount of teary, stressed students - especially come dissertation/exam time* - but faced with someone - even someone who's a friend - having an outwardly emotional reaction to grief, he's pretty much 'oh no, tears, panic stations, what do???' I mean, he dealt with his own grief in a 'conceal, don't feel' way, which is the exact opposite.

Also, I think it's less 'doesn't know how to human', because he's always worked with humans to a greater or lesser extent even 10k years ago and more that he has to hide so much of himself now, as well as being hella introverted, and it all kinda... clashes sometimes.

*Besides, I think academic breakdowns he can handle and can help students through, it's more personal pain that is difficult.

[rheasilvia]

I think it's less 'doesn't know how to human', because he's always worked with humans to a greater or lesser extent even 10k years ago and more that he has to hide so much of himself now, as well as being hella introverted, and it all kinda... clashes sometimes.

This! Yes, that's exactly how I read it, as well.

[china_shop]

*nodnod* I thought his defence of the rapist student was also partly a(n unfortunately misjudged) dig at ZYL for being so suspicious of everyone, including Shen Wei.

But yes, he's not always the best judge of character -- see also his on-going communication with the Zheng Yi's abusive stepfather. It's understandable (they probably only ever talked about their research, and Shen Wei would have no reason to suspect), but especially in TV land, it speaks to Shen Wei's being not the most discerning.

[winter_blossom]

Eh, I dunno about Zheng Yi's stepdad? He was a professional acquaintance, and afaik it was never mentioned that SW even knew he had a stepdaughter. His professional judgement of the guy's character (that he was giving ZYL while he was seething at him for keeping secrets ^^) was actually spot-on.

[riventhorn]

I'm not judging Shen Wei for not realizing certain people were shady, though-- just observing that he interacts with people quite differently than ZYL, and I like that contrast between their characters.

[mekare]

partly a(n unfortunately misjudged) dig at ZYL for being so suspicious of everyone, including Shen Wei.

Oh that makes sense.

[winter_blossom]

Hmm...yeah, Shen Wei's people skills are certainly lacking, or more like, he just doesn't seem to understand Haixingren motivations, emotions, or even human society in general. Which is kind of obvious, imo, since he isn't Haixingren, he didn't grow up around ordinary people and was an orphan from a young age (probably a child soldier), and ever since he came up top has likely been keeping himself aloof from Haixingren unless he was required to interact with them for the sake of either his BCE or professorial duties.

But funnily enough, even though Yun Lan excels above him vastly when it come to casual societal interactions and figuring out suspects, when it comes to long-term relationships I get the feeling that he'd be no better than Shen Wei, or maybe even worse. His problems connecting with Zhu Hong, Chu Shuzi and his dad until he was practically forced into it by supernatural circumstances kind of proves that, imo. But then again, he's a guy, and you can't really expect heartfelt conversations or proper expressions of affection out of a guy anyway XD

[riventhorn]

Part of it is probably the culture/background difference, although I was thinking of it more along the lines of an introvert/extrovert type divide. That's an interesting thought about how ZYL would be when it comes to long-term relationships. Although I'm not sure that I agree that he has problems connecting with Zhu Hong and Chu Shuzi. I think he builds quite strong bonds with them, but in the case of Zhu Hong, it's just that it isn't the kind she wants, and he doesn't want to hurt or embarrass her by making it clear. And with his dad, a lot of the problems there are Zhao Xinci's fault.

[winter_blossom]

I for one have never felt very strongly about his relationships with anyone other than Da Qing and Shen Wei (both of whom don't really behave normally around him, and who were bound to him because of what happened 10 000 years ago), which is why I feel he's not that good at doing long-term, either (or maybe he just doesn't want to, idk). Imo, he definitely could have dealt with Zhu Hong better; and his rather bratty responses to his father only seem to egg the guy on - he ought to have acted more indifferent, cos most Asian parents are very judgemental, including my own, and I (and a lot of other kids like me) have found that the best way to deal with them is to not rise to the provocation until they get tired of blaming and nagging ;D

But then again, taking his age in the show to be 28 means he's only 1 year older than me, so I'm probably comparing us a bit too much. I'm excellent at reading people, myself, but I use that ability to make peace with everyone asap for the sake of my own peace of mind, which isn't something you can expect from a guy, especially not one with a fighting spirit like Yun Lan's!

[solo]

To me, not connecting with Zhao Xinci proves nothing but the ability to avoid assholes.

I didn't think Zhao Yunlan had problems connecting to any of his team, really, beyond the issue of being their boss?

[winter_blossom]

I for one have never felt very strongly about his relationships with anyone other than Da Qing and Shen Wei (both of whom don't really behave normally around him, and who were bound to him because of what happened 10 000 years ago), which is why I feel he's not that good at doing long-term, either (or maybe he just doesn't want to, idk). Imo, he definitely could have dealt with Zhu Hong better; and his rather bratty responses to his father only seem to egg the guy on - he ought to have acted more indifferent, cos most Asian parents are very judgemental, including my own, and I (and a lot of other kids like me) have found that the best way to deal with them is to not rise to the provocation until they get tired of blaming and nagging ;D

But then again, taking his age in the show to be 28 means he's only 1 year older than me, so I'm probably comparing us a bit too much. I'm excellent at reading people, myself, but I use that ability to make peace with everyone asap for the sake of my own peace of mind, which isn't something you can expect from a guy, especially not one with a fighting spirit like Yun Lan's!

[solo]

I... think the Zhu Hong thing was him genuinely being helpless and trying to not hurt her but using totally the wrong way to do it. Which, okay, so he could have handled that better. :)

The father thing I get SO SO MUCH, but then I'm the confrontational type. And I think his problem is, he isn't indifferent, and he can't pretend to be because this goes too deep. But at least, he actually tries to stay out of his father's way. It's only when Zhao Xinci makes his unwelcome, uninvited appearances that ZYL gets 'bratty'.

I do admit the Asian context, I can't speak to, but to me as a Westerner he read totally as someone who is deeply hurt but hell he's not going to back down and play the good son. And it's what I would do.

But then again, taking his age in the show to be 28 means he's only 1 year older than me

LOL well we all know guys mature more slowly!

[qikiqtarjuaq]

To me a big part of Shen Wei's inability to connect with people, even people like his old friend Dr. Cheng and Li Qian, despite caring for them - is that to connect and comfort people requires a level of open-ness and vulnerability that Shen Wei is not willing to show anyone except Zhao Yunlan. And even with Zhao Yunlan, he doesn't always get it right.

[rheasilvia]

Yes! And Shen Wei is forced to always keep a distance because Professor Shen is not all of who he is - he couldn't truly open up to anyone who doesn't know he is the Black-Cloaked Envoy, even if he wanted to. (Which I also agree he doesn't.)

Li Qian is his student, though; as her professor, that relationship is always going to require a certain level of distance, no matter how close they are as student and professor.

And Zhao Yunlan doesn't truly connect with people for the same reason; he connects to his team on the same level Shen Wei does to Li Wian, but it's an inequal and limited relationship. Da Qing is the only person he is open with, until he meets Shen Wei.

[riventhorn]

Definitely--I'm sure that plays a big part in why he keeps himself distant. *pets Shen Wei*

[lynndyre]

I love ZYL's people skills! He's so good at being whatever he needs to be to draw people into whatever reaction he needs to see. (I also love Shen Wei's well-intentioned but very hit-and-miss abilities. He can't be good at everything!)

[riventhorn]

Shen Wei always has the best intentions, doesn't he? *pets him*

[unrelaxing]

I agree with this! Also the depth of emotion Yunlan has about people's lives differ from Shen Wei, too. He obviously cares about people, too, but he's also distant from those feelings; both approaches are correct in different times - can't imagine Yunlan's approach would work in old Haixing, for example.

[riventhorn]

They both do keep themselves emotionally distant from others, for different reasons--which is why it's so lovely when they drop that distance between each other.