Shen Wei's decision not to tell Zhao Yunlan

[riventhorn]

 I'm putting this discussion behind the cut because it contains spoilers for Episodes 38 through 40. 

I'm interested in how others feel about Shen Wei's decision not to tell Zhao Yunlan about his end-game plan for stopping Ye Zun, i.e. turning himself into a bomb. 

Personally, I think it was the right decision--or perhaps it is more accurate to say, the best choice of many bad options. Regardless of whether he told Zhao Yunlan or not, I don't think Shen Wei would have changed his decision to sacrifice himself to stop Ye Zun. If he had told ZYL much earlier, say when he first conceived of the plan or during the famous kitchen scene, it would only have resulted in a lot of fighting, anger, and sorrow, because ZYL would certainly have tried to stop Shen Wei or done something drastic himself to try and stop Ye Zun. I mean, just look at ZYL's face in these moments in Ep 38 when Shen Wei is hurt and how absolutely devastated he is: https://youtu.be/V2dUtbSz4hQ?t=1823

By not telling ZYL, Shen Wei is able to be with him without Shen Wei's looming death hanging over them. Shen Wei, of course, knows what is coming and has to bear that, but I consider it more an act of kindness and love not to tell ZYL as opposed to looking at it as a selfish act. 

Beyond this moment, it raises the interesting question of when it is appropriate to keep secrets, to keep people in the dark, to hide bad news, etc. I know I've read this somewhere, although I can't remember where, but it was something to the effect of how a strong and lasting relationship may not necessarily depend on the parties involved sharing everything with each other. 

Comments

[riventhorn]

True that fiction and RL are different. :) I was also forgetting about how ZYL does know something is going on with Shen Wei's health and his powers and is patiently waiting for Shen Wei to tell him.

[riventhorn]

My understanding of that part was that Shen Wei intended ZYL to rescue both Guo and him, otherwise why would he send his sword along with Guo? I thought Shen Wei was just waiting for Ye Zun to leave and expected his sword to be able to cut through the chain.

This could, of course, be one of the many parts I am confused about. Reasons to keep rewatching!!

[trobadora]

and if he was a little relieved to find out at the end that Shen Wei was not, in fact, harming himself only to help ZYL

Oooh, yes, that's a good point! I think he would definitely have been relieved it wasn't all for him. (And honestly, when I watched it the first time, so was I!)

[xparrot]

Yeah, this is very much a YMMV thing.

For me, Ye Zun's absolute power seems very deus ex machina; Shen Wei's powers are so undefined as well, so Ye Zun being undeniably more powerful than him feels like an arbitrary storytelling decision to force the tragic end. Shen Wei pulling a crazy unseen power out to defeat Ye Zun because Zhao Yunlan is threatened wouldn't feel any more or less plausible to me than the actual end -- or Zhao Yunlan gaining a Dixing power from the serum strong enough to fight Ye Zun, or Ye Zun deciding at the last moment that he can't kill his brother after all, or a host of other things; the only reason they don't have those options is because the writers don't let them?

But it's all subjective! For me, tragic endings are a tough sell -- I do like them sometimes, but it takes a lot to satisfy me; while I'm more likely to go easy on a happy ending. For me, for what the Guardian show is to me and how I relate to it, the ending doesn't work. But that's what fanfic is for!

[galaxysoup]

Ooooooh, that's such a painful point but you're so right ;____;

[galaxysoup]

Thanks! :D

[galaxysoup]

Yeah, I think if ZYL had had time right after Lin Jing reappears to think about it he might have gone the angry route. But since he's in the middle of a fight and not too long after that he goes and sacrifices himself too, I think he gets it. I hadn't put that part together until Trobadora said it below.

[trobadora]

Yeah, we're clearly coming at this from very different directions! For me, the drama is building up to that ending so much, I'm having trouble believing anything else. *g*

(I can be convinced for the duration of a fic! I do love a good canon divergence. And I'm here for ALL the happy endings.)

[trobadora]

I do love that they end up on the same page in the end. ♥

[riventhorn]

Yes, probably how you feel about it depends a lot on how you feel about the overall ending. I'll have to spend some more time pondering why tragic endings can appeal to me. For example, I also really liked the ending of BBC's Merlin, which was arguably even sadder than Guardian. I'd also throw the LOTR in there, with Frodo's "death." I think part of it is that they pack such an emotional punch that the feelings linger with me and make me think more. Also, perhaps in some ways they feel more realistic to me as opposed to a HEA ending in that they capture the bittersweet/sad aspects of life. Certainly with both Guardian and Merlin, I like the tragic ending because it's not just a "ok, I don't know how to end this, let's just kill everyone off" and not just done to be depressing but rather the characters' sacrifices are for a real purpose.

But anyway, as you say, everyone has their own feelings on the subject!

[ranalore]

This is really well-said.

I do think, given the constraints of the canon world, Shen Wei made the best decision in not telling ZYL his ultimate plan. It's kinder to both of them, I think, and he does rely on ZYL for the things ZYL can realistically do (and ZYL still manages to get involved in the Dixing side of things anyway, and make his own ludicrously noble self-sacrifice on behalf of everybody, so).

I mean, of course there's a huge squishy part of me that wishes it could have been otherwise, that Shen Wei had told ZYL everything and they had figured out an alternative that allowed them both to live, but I think that aspect of the plot was so intricately constructed, a lot of other things in the show would have to fundamentally change for it to work. So, I will happily read--and write--fixits by the dozens, but I'm Team Shen Wei's Sacrifice, too. Plus, they both suffer so prettily

[riventhorn]

I think that aspect of the plot was so intricately constructed, a lot of other things in the show would have to fundamentally change for it to work.

You're right--it's really embedded in so many of the episodes and the entire dynamic.

Plus, they both suffer so prettily

I am not ashamed to admit that this also factors very heavily into why I like the ending. :D

[ranalore]

I'd also argue that Shen Wei should've told Zhao Yunlan that he and Ye Zun were brothers

This is one of those areas where Shen Wei's possible secrets shade over into how much Shen Wei's put together about Zhao Yunlan's Excellent Adventure, for me. Does he remember "Kun Lun" being shocked to learn they were brothers 10K years ago? If he does, and if he figures out ZYL must have time travelled with the assistance/interference of the Hallows, he may say nothing to protect the space-time continuum. If he hasn't figured out the time travelling yet (maybe believes ZYL has amnesia, like Da Qing), or isn't sure if it already happened, he may believe ZYL remembered/recognized Ye Zun when Ye Zun manifested just before ZYL went blind. I'm just not sure it's something he's deliberately keeping from ZYL, though it's equally possible it's just, as you say in your last sentence, that Shen Wei's not in the habit of volunteering information.

[china_shop]

If he hasn't figured out the time travelling yet (maybe believes ZYL has amnesia, like Da Qing)

Except he knows Zhao Yunlan is human, and he's met his father. And given the gun and the lollipops, it kind of has to be time travel, doesn't it? I thought he'd figure that out as soon as he arrived in Haixing 20 years ago (if not before).

[ranalore]

Except he knows Zhao Yunlan is human, and he's met his father.

All that really tells him, though, is that Zhao Yunlan's originally from this time period. I think the gun and lollipops confirm for him that this isn't just someone who looks like the love he lost, this is his love, but he's still trying to figure out how and when the time travel happen/ed possibly right up until it does, and thus how much ZYL knows, and how much it's safe for ZYL to know. If he realizes ZYL hasn't traveled back in time before that point, and doesn't make the connection between Ye Zun looking like Shen Wei and being related to Shen Wei, he may think it's safer for ZYL not to know. Which, given Ye Zun's instability, is possibly the case.

[china_shop]

Oh, right. I misunderstood your earlier comment about Da Qing and amnesia, and thought you mean that Shen Wei might believe ZYL was 10,000 years old like Da Qing. *facepalm*

So when you say "If he hasn't figured out the time travelling yet" you mean if he hasn't figured out when the time-travelling happened, not if it was time travel, then?

(I feel like if the SID Chief had serious memory problems, it would either be in his file or Chu Shuzhi would know and have reported it, but I suppose they could have hushed it up if they were very careful.)

[ranalore]

I can see this argument. I mean, for me, the ending works, and so many things in the show were building up to it. Yet, especially in a discussion like this, my writerly brain turns on and I can't help but see the authorial fiat in that.

Do I think it would take some work to make a happier ending jive? Yes. Yet, there are undefined plot elements that, depending on how you interpret them, could help with some of the heavy lifting. The twins' powers, the powers of the Hallows, how the Hallows responded to ZYL, and how they were changing ZYL, are just a few factors I can think of that could have changed how the ending went down (even if it still ended with all three dying, how that happened could have been radically different). I could even see how, if other conditions were still met (light and resources to Dixing, SW's energy fundamentally changed, for example), ZYL and SW living (and possibly a neutralized Ye Zun) might work with earlier plot threads. I think it would take some careful writing, but I think the potential is there.

[xparrot]

Yes, part of the problem I have with the end is that I agree that some of the show was written toward it -- toward the ending that was required, that the characters had to die, because they could not be allowed to have a happy ending, not as an mlm couple in a PRC drama.

But then, a lot of the show was also taking from the novel (if not the plot, then specific scenes, e.g. the confrontation in ep 23 is nearly a direct adaptation), which does end happily.

I think the story as arranged did necessitate sacrifice -- many stories do. But I don't think that sacrifice had to be their lives. Shen Wei losing his powers and becoming (whole or partly) a mortal Haixingren -- even as Zhao Yunlan took the serum and became Dixingren -- could have also met a lot of the requirements of the narrative setup. (Plus there are threads like Xiao Guo being the lantern's wick that are left dangling...)

[ranalore]

I misunderstood your earlier comment about Da Qing and amnesia, and thought you mean that Shen Wei might believe ZYL was 10,000 years old like Da Qing.

Oh, sorry. I think that was just me not being clear.

So when you say "If he hasn't figured out the time travelling yet" you mean if he hasn't figured out when the time-travelling happened, not if it was time travel, then?

Right. I think once he knows ZYL's the right person, he probably posits time travel as the most likely theory, and given that temporal effects are theorized as a side effect of using the Hallows, he may even determine they're the most likely culprits (and then warn ZYL to stop messing with them, because who knows how much time travelling they might send ZYL on without Shen Wei to stop it, he's even jealous of the time his younger self will get to spend with ZYL). Add another reason he's pissed that ZYL can't keep his hands off the LD.

(I feel like if the SID Chief had serious memory problems, it would either be in his file or Chu Shuzhi would know and have reported it, but I suppose they could have hushed it up if they were very careful.)

Ha! True. I was thinking more of situational amnesia, like Shen Wei wondered if ZYL had gone to the past and forgotten it on his return. Many of their early encounters are reading to me, on rewatching, as Shen Wei prompting ZYL, trying to understand why ZYL doesn't recognize him (and trying not to lose heart that this is his Kun Lun, because lollipops! And also Da Qing!). He doesn't see the gun until the Hanga Tribe arc, which I'm at now, but I think he's pretty convinced already. I also think he's still on the fence about what exactly happened, though; he hasn't brought up any temporal effects yet. I don't think those come into play until at least two of them are together, which might be the point when he starts working it out.

[riventhorn]

Jumping in to say that I was just rewatching the first episode, and it's so hard to see Shen Wei giving ZYL those little prompts and obviously hoping that any second now, Zhao Yunlan is going to recognize him, only to be left disappointed and confused when he doesn't.

[ranalore]

But then, a lot of the show was also taking from the novel (if not the plot, then specific scenes, e.g. the confrontation in ep 23 is nearly a direct adaptation), which does end happily.

I was thinking about that, too. I haven't read the novel, and consider it extracanonical to the show, but of course those aspects of it that made it into the show are show canon. And the thing about scenes that are close adaptations, they come with their own intent--authorial fiat again--with some embedding of the original context. So there is a carefully built throughline leading to the sacrifice-as-written, but there are also pieces there to be connected to lead to a different ending, one closer to that on which the show's own adaptation was based.

Plus, we always have to keep in mind that the show's text itself can be read at at least two levels: what the censors made happen, and what the creators really wanted to make. I have written a lot of fandoms set at least partly in the afterlife; that could still have been a happy ending, had SW and ZYL been allowed to stay together.

Shen Wei losing his powers and becoming (whole or partly) a mortal Haixingren

I would actually love to have seen him become something entirely new, a light energy Dixingren, but that's my id.

Plus there are threads like Xiao Guo being the lantern's wick that are left dangling...

I did wonder about that, and the conversations about that didn't make it sound like Xiao Guo would necessarily need to die for that to happen (though Lao Chu also suffers prettily, so if Xiao Guo did end up dying, it would be for two good causes).

[ranalore]

I knoooow, his little face! Then later, he's so winded when ZYL asks about his name. Used to being injured, indeed.

[xparrot]

I would actually love to have seen him become something entirely new, a light energy Dixingren, but that's my id.

Oh hey, that would be cool, I like that one!

And it really would've fit better with the show's themes, to me (one of my biggest problems with the ending, aside from the character death, is that after a whole show's worth of examples of how Haixingren and Dixingren can learn to get along and work together and love each other -- in the end the worlds are completely separated. To me it's a tragedy presented as a victory, and was unnecessary besides...)

[goodgriefcharlie]

I also think it's possible that in the early days Shen Wei kept quiet about his energy-exchange/eventual-bomb plan because he wasn't certain he'd actually need to follow through with it. With the SID working hard to find the Hallows themselves, there was no guarantee that Ye Zun's plan would come to fruition. Why cause Zhao Yunlan pain over something that was just a hypothetical? If everything worked out and they found four functioning Hallows and were able to seal Ye Zun solidly back in his pillar, Shen Wei could just stop exchanging his energy and allow himself to heal and all would be fine.

Then Ye Zun did escape from his pillar and at this point, I agree with you -- SW's options were very limited and he chose the one he could live with, which of course was the one that spared ZYL as much pain as possible for as long as possible. I'd argue it was also a strategic choice on SW's part: with Ye Zun walking free and causing havoc, it was not the time for ZYL to be distracted or to divide the SID team's efforts--which ZYL absolutely would be and do if he knew SW was going to sacrifice himself. It would pull attention and resources and time away from the hunt for the Hallows and countering Ye Zun's plans and at that point, they really couldn't afford it. I also think SW would worry that a distracted ZYL would be a more vulnerable ZYL; he'd risk getting hurt either because he wasn't paying enough attention to Ye Zun/YZ's minions or because he'd willingly do dangerous things if he thought it'd save SW. (And the thought that ZYL could possibly get hurt because of him is probably the fuel of SW's nightmares, to be honest.)

[china_shop]

I think once he knows ZYL's the right person, he probably posits time travel as the most likely theory, and given that temporal effects are theorized as a side effect of using the Hallows, he may even determine they're the most likely culprits

I don't think he needs to theorise about this: in the past, ZYL was quite clear about retrieving the Hallows being his "mission", and when they had them, he was all, "Okay, so where's my wormhole?"

he's even jealous of the time his younger self will get to spend with ZYL

Oh, whereas I think he really cherishes that time and wouldn't change it for anything. I think that's a large part of what holds him back from revealing himself sooner.

Add another reason he's pissed that ZYL can't keep his hands off the LD.

Or the fact that ZYL keeps passing out/getting sick when he touches them?

Many of their early encounters are reading to me, on rewatching, as Shen Wei prompting ZYL, trying to understand why ZYL doesn't recognize him (and trying not to lose heart that this is his Kun Lun, because lollipops! And also Da Qing!).

*pets him* I tend to put that down to wishful thinking, which he can't quite suppress (and I'm having a lot of fun rolling around in the angst in fic *ahem*). I think by episode four, when he says that an important person gave him his name, he's pretty resigned to the fact that ZYL isn't his Kunlun yet, especially given ZYL's stated attitudes to Dixingren.

He doesn't see the gun until the Hanga Tribe arc

I feel that he would have seen it, or at least been aware of its existence, when it belonged to Zhao Xinci. (Though that does leave a space-yet-to-be-filled-in in my head about why he wasn't subsequently paying more attention to SID chiefs thereafter.)